In the fourth installment of In the Margins, we’re putting down the books and picking up our headphones for three of our favorite podcasts. These episodes feature marketers, authors, and comedy writers breaking down what it means to wield words for a living.
- Working it Out - hosted by Mike Birbiglia, a podcast dedicated to the art of a good joke
- Talking To Ourselves - hosted by Omid Farhang, creative leaders and the stories behind their careers (archive only)
- A Change of Brand - hosted by Blake Howard, talks with folks behind the biggest rebrands of today
Working it Out
Hosted by Mike Birbiglia
Format: In each episode, Birbiglia sits down with a writer of some form to talk shop. It usually includes a quick intro, a thoughtful interview segment called “The Slow Round," a moment to work out bits together, and a philanthropic shout out to wrap things up.
Episodes we listened to and what we learned:
Elizabeth Gilbert - Author
Gilbert is a fiction (Eat, Pray, Love) and nonfiction (Big Magic) author who reflects deeply on what it means to interact with the creative "spark." On this episode, she focused on the importance of believing in your own work. The making of the thing is the best part." She goes on to say our work's first and most passionate "sugar mommy."
Gary Gullman - Comedian
My bias is showing, but Mike’s episodes with comedian Gary Gullman are some of my favorites. Early in the episode, they touch on Gullman’s running notebook of every joke he’s thought of—good or bad—because he believes he will use them eventually. He also shares a lot of thoughts around comparison, reminding young comedians to avoid people who make you want to quit (I feel read).
Some of the most intriguing bits of this episode were some nerdy joke-writing bits like:
- Subvert the rule of three every once in a while
- Experiment with how few or how many words you can share an idea in
- Analogies jokes are harder to pull off and your better off going specific
- You shouldn’t be judgemental about others without also observing your own absurdity
- You need a place to bomb and not quit right after
Hannah Gadsby - Comedian
Gadsby’s interview rings a little differently than the others. Between the surge in attention surrounding Nannette and an adult Autism diagnosis, Gadsby is working things out on both personal and professional levels. Though the interview is less about specific jokes or tips, it showcases Gadsby’s overarching process. For example, they share the concept of “shaking the tree” to work through how an idea might come to life without putting too much pressure on it.
This episode is also a fantastic example of the “Yes, and” spirit. Throughout Birbiglia prompted Gadbsy to share more, stopping to admire their next-level wit as often as possible. Not only does it show someone you’re listening, it’s a chance to give them their flowers in real time.
Lin-Manual Miranda - Composer and Musical Theater Writer
I was surprised to hear famed musical writer Lin-Manual Miranda on the podcast, but couldn’t have been more pleased. The episode is 10/10 and my top three takeaways/highlights were:
- When asked about something people don’t know about writing musicals, Miranda answered, “You’ll never understand how many ideas you need to have.” If that ain’t true for true copywriting, I’m not sure what is.
- He observes: “Horror, porn, and musicals are all going for the same thing. There’s so much emotion and there’s nowhere to go, so people either fight, f***, or sing.” I haven’t quite found a way to apply that to my work, but I think to have such insight around your genre is top tier.
- And finally, the age old truth that the best way to learn how to do a thing is to do the thing.
Talking To Ourselves
Hosted by Omid Farhang
Format: Omid, a very well-connected creative and founder of Majority, talks with his peers and friends about the story of their careers. There isn’t much of a standard format, but he does always ask folks what their parents did/do and it’s such a great question. I should note that this podcast isn’t specifically for any one kind of creative. It’s also off the air, but the full archive is available in the usual places.
Episodes we listened to and what we learned:
Mike Cessario - Liquid Death
Liquid Death stirs brand envy from coast to coast, but Founder and Creative Director Mike Cessario’s story is a comforting reminder—be you, the success will come. The episode covers all the ways this hardcore canned water company scrapped and fought its way to shelves and hearts, including:
- A connection to passion (metal, hardcore culture, skating, etc)— "You won’t figure out what people want; you can only figure out what you do better or know more about."
- A really good team and extended universe of creative partners (ex: hiring a comedy writer to name a product or a metal band to put music to bad reviews).
- Unapologetic writing and branding. “We had zero dollars to market, the name HAD to be so insane someone would take a picture of it.”
Luke Sullivan - Copywriter and SCAD Professor
I’ve talked about Luke Sullivan and his writing in this series before, but it was interesting to hear more about the man behind the book and how said book came to be. He even talks about his struggles with sobriety and the culture of trauma in the industry. But as for advice, some new pieces are “start from where you are, and where you are is what you're thinking about.” He also preaches to get off your device from time to time. Don’t even hold a pencil. “Don't f*cking write, talk.” Because once you start, you’ll find “adjacent” doors of novel opportunity.
Shannon Washington- Now CCO of GOTHAM, then US CCO of RGA, interviewed by Jaime Robinson - Cofounder of JOAN
Shannon Washington is a multidisciplinary creative leader featured in AdWeek 100, Fast Company, and more. I imagine her trophy shelf is under immense pressure. A lot of this episode is about being willing to put in the hours and speak up for yourself. But inevitably, the conversation keeps coming back to Washington’s personal experience being “the first Black anything.”
At the time of the interview, she had recently become the US Chief Creative officer at RGA, the first Black woman to hold the title at any holding company. In the interview, Washington says, “As honored as I am, and I take it extremely seriously, I need [people] to not get caught up in that love and in me because I need y’all to take a look inward and wonder how the hell this hadn’t happened before 2022.” She shares that this cultural role has a “haunting to it.”
While this episode is light on specific advice for day-to-day creatives, I think every professional in our industry should listen anyway.
A Change of Brand
Hosted by Blake Howard
Mike Reed - Founder of Reed Words
Each episode goes behind the scenes of rebranding “glory, drama, and disaster.” This is the most traditionally formatted podcast of the bunch. It’s scripted narration woven into interview snippets. They usually focus on the design of things, but in the episodes recommended to me (thanks, Carissa!), they talk more about verbal identity—specifically, the work done for Formula 1 racing led by Mike Reed. Some interesting pieces from under the hood (pun intended):
- You don’t need to be super into the thing to really figure out how it ticks. Mike Reed knew very little about F1 before getting the gig, but he became a student and asked “both obvious and les obvious” questions just to hear exactly how they responded. He says, “Our second most important skill after writing is listening.”
- An extreme sport needs extreme word choice—“this can’t be approved marketing language.”
- The brand avoids the idea of “passion” because it’s too generic. BIG agree.
A quick plug: Speaking of A Change of Brand…I can’t recommend the episode with The Subtext founder Carissa Justice enough. She represents “the red-headed stepchild of branding” so very well.
The Show Notes
I love my books, but there are so many nuggets among these hours of podcast. I’ve already started bringing some of the specific pieces of advice into my practice, but my overarching takeaways were:
- Be open to all kinds of inspiration and ways of being. There’s a ton of great advice beyond the world of branding and you never know what great tidbit you can bring to your next project.
- Believe in yourself, believe in the long game. No one writes “that” headline right off the bat, and comparing your timeline or output to anyone but your past self isn’t helping. For every “Just Do It,” there were hundreds of other lines that didn’t make the cut, and years of experience that can help you write and spot the winner.
- Write what you know. And if you don’t know it, become the most curious student in the room. Learn from others and the way they present the information.
- There are parts of society—Blackness, neurodivergence, queerness, etc—that make this job immeasurably harder, but there are those that can help. And if that doesn’t apply to you, be aware of your privilege as you move up the ladder. Ask yourself who you can help up along the way.
Happy listening!
Em
In the fourth installment of In the Margins, we’re putting down the books and picking up our headphones for three of our favorite podcasts. These episodes feature marketers, authors, and comedy writers breaking down what it means to wield words for a living.
- Working it Out - hosted by Mike Birbiglia, a podcast dedicated to the art of a good joke
- Talking To Ourselves - hosted by Omid Farhang, creative leaders and the stories behind their careers (archive only)
- A Change of Brand - hosted by Blake Howard, talks with folks behind the biggest rebrands of today
Working it Out
Hosted by Mike Birbiglia
Format: In each episode, Birbiglia sits down with a writer of some form to talk shop. It usually includes a quick intro, a thoughtful interview segment called “The Slow Round," a moment to work out bits together, and a philanthropic shout out to wrap things up.
Episodes we listened to and what we learned:
Elizabeth Gilbert - Author
Gilbert is a fiction (Eat, Pray, Love) and nonfiction (Big Magic) author who reflects deeply on what it means to interact with the creative "spark." On this episode, she focused on the importance of believing in your own work. The making of the thing is the best part." She goes on to say our work's first and most passionate "sugar mommy."
Gary Gullman - Comedian
My bias is showing, but Mike’s episodes with comedian Gary Gullman are some of my favorites. Early in the episode, they touch on Gullman’s running notebook of every joke he’s thought of—good or bad—because he believes he will use them eventually. He also shares a lot of thoughts around comparison, reminding young comedians to avoid people who make you want to quit (I feel read).
Some of the most intriguing bits of this episode were some nerdy joke-writing bits like:
- Subvert the rule of three every once in a while
- Experiment with how few or how many words you can share an idea in
- Analogies jokes are harder to pull off and your better off going specific
- You shouldn’t be judgemental about others without also observing your own absurdity
- You need a place to bomb and not quit right after
Hannah Gadsby - Comedian
Gadsby’s interview rings a little differently than the others. Between the surge in attention surrounding Nannette and an adult Autism diagnosis, Gadsby is working things out on both personal and professional levels. Though the interview is less about specific jokes or tips, it showcases Gadsby’s overarching process. For example, they share the concept of “shaking the tree” to work through how an idea might come to life without putting too much pressure on it.
This episode is also a fantastic example of the “Yes, and” spirit. Throughout Birbiglia prompted Gadbsy to share more, stopping to admire their next-level wit as often as possible. Not only does it show someone you’re listening, it’s a chance to give them their flowers in real time.
Lin-Manual Miranda - Composer and Musical Theater Writer
I was surprised to hear famed musical writer Lin-Manual Miranda on the podcast, but couldn’t have been more pleased. The episode is 10/10 and my top three takeaways/highlights were:
- When asked about something people don’t know about writing musicals, Miranda answered, “You’ll never understand how many ideas you need to have.” If that ain’t true for true copywriting, I’m not sure what is.
- He observes: “Horror, porn, and musicals are all going for the same thing. There’s so much emotion and there’s nowhere to go, so people either fight, f***, or sing.” I haven’t quite found a way to apply that to my work, but I think to have such insight around your genre is top tier.
- And finally, the age old truth that the best way to learn how to do a thing is to do the thing.
Talking To Ourselves
Hosted by Omid Farhang
Format: Omid, a very well-connected creative and founder of Majority, talks with his peers and friends about the story of their careers. There isn’t much of a standard format, but he does always ask folks what their parents did/do and it’s such a great question. I should note that this podcast isn’t specifically for any one kind of creative. It’s also off the air, but the full archive is available in the usual places.
Episodes we listened to and what we learned:
Mike Cessario - Liquid Death
Liquid Death stirs brand envy from coast to coast, but Founder and Creative Director Mike Cessario’s story is a comforting reminder—be you, the success will come. The episode covers all the ways this hardcore canned water company scrapped and fought its way to shelves and hearts, including:
- A connection to passion (metal, hardcore culture, skating, etc)— "You won’t figure out what people want; you can only figure out what you do better or know more about."
- A really good team and extended universe of creative partners (ex: hiring a comedy writer to name a product or a metal band to put music to bad reviews).
- Unapologetic writing and branding. “We had zero dollars to market, the name HAD to be so insane someone would take a picture of it.”
Luke Sullivan - Copywriter and SCAD Professor
I’ve talked about Luke Sullivan and his writing in this series before, but it was interesting to hear more about the man behind the book and how said book came to be. He even talks about his struggles with sobriety and the culture of trauma in the industry. But as for advice, some new pieces are “start from where you are, and where you are is what you're thinking about.” He also preaches to get off your device from time to time. Don’t even hold a pencil. “Don't f*cking write, talk.” Because once you start, you’ll find “adjacent” doors of novel opportunity.
Shannon Washington- Now CCO of GOTHAM, then US CCO of RGA, interviewed by Jaime Robinson - Cofounder of JOAN
Shannon Washington is a multidisciplinary creative leader featured in AdWeek 100, Fast Company, and more. I imagine her trophy shelf is under immense pressure. A lot of this episode is about being willing to put in the hours and speak up for yourself. But inevitably, the conversation keeps coming back to Washington’s personal experience being “the first Black anything.”
At the time of the interview, she had recently become the US Chief Creative officer at RGA, the first Black woman to hold the title at any holding company. In the interview, Washington says, “As honored as I am, and I take it extremely seriously, I need [people] to not get caught up in that love and in me because I need y’all to take a look inward and wonder how the hell this hadn’t happened before 2022.” She shares that this cultural role has a “haunting to it.”
While this episode is light on specific advice for day-to-day creatives, I think every professional in our industry should listen anyway.
A Change of Brand
Hosted by Blake Howard
Mike Reed - Founder of Reed Words
Each episode goes behind the scenes of rebranding “glory, drama, and disaster.” This is the most traditionally formatted podcast of the bunch. It’s scripted narration woven into interview snippets. They usually focus on the design of things, but in the episodes recommended to me (thanks, Carissa!), they talk more about verbal identity—specifically, the work done for Formula 1 racing led by Mike Reed. Some interesting pieces from under the hood (pun intended):
- You don’t need to be super into the thing to really figure out how it ticks. Mike Reed knew very little about F1 before getting the gig, but he became a student and asked “both obvious and les obvious” questions just to hear exactly how they responded. He says, “Our second most important skill after writing is listening.”
- An extreme sport needs extreme word choice—“this can’t be approved marketing language.”
- The brand avoids the idea of “passion” because it’s too generic. BIG agree.
A quick plug: Speaking of A Change of Brand…I can’t recommend the episode with The Subtext founder Carissa Justice enough. She represents “the red-headed stepchild of branding” so very well.
The Show Notes
I love my books, but there are so many nuggets among these hours of podcast. I’ve already started bringing some of the specific pieces of advice into my practice, but my overarching takeaways were:
- Be open to all kinds of inspiration and ways of being. There’s a ton of great advice beyond the world of branding and you never know what great tidbit you can bring to your next project.
- Believe in yourself, believe in the long game. No one writes “that” headline right off the bat, and comparing your timeline or output to anyone but your past self isn’t helping. For every “Just Do It,” there were hundreds of other lines that didn’t make the cut, and years of experience that can help you write and spot the winner.
- Write what you know. And if you don’t know it, become the most curious student in the room. Learn from others and the way they present the information.
- There are parts of society—Blackness, neurodivergence, queerness, etc—that make this job immeasurably harder, but there are those that can help. And if that doesn’t apply to you, be aware of your privilege as you move up the ladder. Ask yourself who you can help up along the way.
Happy listening!
Em
Further Reading
